Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me here today on the Relief from Grief podcast. Today’s podcast is sponsored L’iluy Nishmas Yichezkal Shraga Ben Alisha. And today, Mrs. Esther Gendelman is here. She is a licensed therapist in Toms River, New Jersey. And she is a writer for the Yated, the Couch, as well as a book that she has written, and she’s also a, director of the Grief Not director. You work with the Yad V’yad meetings. Oh, yes, I’m not director. I’m one of the facilitators of a support group. Correct. Well, thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

I really, really appreciate it. Okay. So I know that when we spoke, we spoke about how your passion is really in all types of relationships and strengthening all types of relationships. So I guess being that this is about loss. I guess let’s talk about what happens to relationships during loss do families, get stronger, get weakened.

Okay. So the answer is both. It really depends on the nature of a relationship. They say what doesn’t build us can break us, right? Something can make us or break us. Right. Certainly true of a challenge. It’s certainly true of grief. When Couples or families learn how to turn towards each other, be there for each other, accept the other person’s experience and be supportive, then shared pain brings us closer.

When there might already be separation, lack of secure attachment, judgment, feelings of the one right way to grieve, then a challenge or a loss is only gonna exacerbate it. So, you’re saying. When there’s already issues, the loss is going to exasperate it. Exactly. Is there such a thing as like, they’re not being issues and therefore it just gets stronger?

Again, if we’re looking at not having issues as being perfect, of course, there’s no such thing as perfect. As long as we’re human, we’re defined by being imperfect, which to me is simcha actually, because there would be no work for us to do in life if we. attained at all, but because Hashem is perfect, there is no ceiling and we can continue having the joy of growth.

Having said that, there’s a difference between imperfect and a secure relationship and an insecure relationship. A secure relationship means 80 percent of the time, will you be there when I need you? The answer is yes. So that means in that place of security, it is possible if a couple or a family learns how to be there with each other, the grief can bring them closer.

Whereas if the relationship is insecure and the answer to the question is, will you be there when I need you? No. No. Instead of closeness, there’s judgment, there’s defensiveness, there’s criticism, there’s contempt, there’s all those minefields. Then bring another complication into the relationship, and for sure it’s going to further complicate it.

It’s so painful, no? It’s like the most painful thing to have that in a marriage. It’s like so hard. To which aspect of it are you referring to Miriam? I’m referring to when there’s, judgment and contempt and all those words that you just said in a marriage. I mean, yeah, that’s painful. But then a person’s going through loss, like it makes the loss so much more painful because absolutely absolutely because at a time when a person’s vulnerable and they need that secure attachment and that comfort and to be able to be vulnerable and go through their own emotional process more than ever. and they feel a need to walk on eggshells or get in trouble or be judged and it absolutely makes the pain worse and it’s so important when somebody’s going through grief to know that they can have non judgmental resources and in themselves be a non judgmental internal resource as well, and have others with whom they can feel safe and accepted.

Sometimes, just to be fair, that we’re not going to oversimplify and just, label a relationship as secure or insecure, but it’s often nuanced. It can be secure in some ways and insecure in other ways, but not every person is able to be fully there when it comes to grief. Either they’re clueless at what to do or what to say or how to help, and so they often wind up just making it worse.

Sometimes, let’s assume even with the best of intentions, every person who sat Shivah can write a book. On the hurtful comments that people made who came there to help right right so As one example is so wisely stated. There’s no words of comfort that begin with the words at least

It’s no such thing, you know, so That’s, yes, to, to answer your question, when somebody’s going through grief, they need that safe place in their relationship more than ever. And when they don’t have it, then they have more layers of pain. They have the loss of whoever it is they lost, and then they have the loss of safety to be going through whatever they’re going through without that support and closeness.

And that’s painful. So, are there different ways to support a spouse, like if the spouse, let’s say, lost a parent or a sibling, you know, someone just they sat shiva for, versus a loss that they really share, like if it’s a child or something like that, or just a child is the only loss that they really share, I guess.

Absolutely. And I’ll go ahead and give you a personal example, if I may, for that. My husband just lost his father. The Shloshim is coming up next week, so you’re talking about extremely fresh. Yes. I lost my mother. When I was in my twenties. Okay. And I’m sure you think I look very young right now, but I’m not in my twenties.

I was going to say, I’m only like 28. Absolutely. So both, my husband and I are both noticing so many contrasts and obviously he was there for me 30 plus years ago. I just gave something away, didn’t I? And and I want to be there for him. So let’s talk about this for a second. His father was 95.

Sound of mind and body. Thank God until almost the end. Married happily, magnificently for 67 years. My husband, every day, his day now is revolving around. I can say Kaddish for my father. I can daven for the amud three times a day for my father. The feeling of being a man. And that his father, it’s sad,when does a person ever want to say goodbye in this world to a parent?

If it was a parent they loved and felt close to, the answer’s never, right? It doesn’t matter how old, it’s still painful and it’s a chapter closed and a grief process. At the same time, There’s not a tragic feeling to it in the context of Olam HaZeh. Death always has a tragic feel if you ask me, you know, but there’s not a tragic feeling in the context of Olam HaZeh because we all know life in this world is not forever, and it was a life well lived, and it wasn’t a lot of suffering, and the marriage, was blessed etc.

And he’s able to do go through this tangible process and feel like he’s giving his father these gifts every day. Myself, as a woman, there was no Kaddish, there was no Davening for the Amud. It was an emotional process. She was 47 years old. I was in my 20s. It did have a tragic element to have no parents left while still in my 20s and feeling still like a baby myself.

And what I needed from him was that emotional support. Was the comfort, was the ability to go through whatever emotions I was feeling, was extra help with the kids that’s what I needed from him. What he needs from me now is really way less because of the tangible parts because it doesn’t have the tragic element and I’m happy to be there as needed, which of course might change over time. 

But right now that’s his focus. His focus is really like, you know, He was there at Yetzias Neshama. He had beautiful quality time before. His mother got up at the levayah and said, I had 67 years of the gift. So to go back to your question, your question was nuanced. A, is there a difference of what spouses need from each other?

Even that can be different depending on situation, depending on relationship, and I’m finding depending on gender sometimes too, because the tangible ability does something different, right? So there are each relationship and each loss is going to be unique. And again, it goes back to how can I be there for you?

What do you need from me during this time? Do you need talk? Do you need quiet space? Do you want our children around more? Do you want our children around less? Do you want a big shloshim. Do you want a quiet shloshim? , what does purim mean for you? What does yom tov mean for you?

Like, how can I be there? You want me to represent you with simchas? Is it easier if I go a little less right now? Meaning being in tune with what the other person needs, which everybody’s going to be different. When it’s a shared loss, , In some ways it’s easier and in other ways it’s harder.

Because when both people are in the throes of suffering, it’s hard to be a source of giving strength when both people can feel in this terrible ache. At the same time, If we look at the recent war, which is still ongoing in Eretz Yisrael as an example, there’s something about shared pain that definitely has the capacity to bring people closer in ways that words can’t even say, but, and words are not even needed.

There’s just shared pain and shared loss. So it’s not one or the other. Wow. And what happens if a spouse needs something, but the other spouse doesn’t want to give it to them? For whatever reason, it just doesn’t work for them, and they feel resentful towards that.

So to me, that goes back to predating the grief, meaning what, if a relationship is healthy, then it’s defined by an attitude of what I’ll call nedivas halev or emotional generosity, which means that most of the time the answer is sure. And if it’s not sure it’s, I wish I could, I’d love to, but I was up six times last night and I’m just depleted.

 Can I do that for you next week? In a healthy relationship where both people are giving and both people are receiving. It’s dominated by emotional generosity. So somebody who feels like they can’t or they don’t want to, the question is, what are their obstacles? And I doubt those obstacles are only about the grief, except if somebody had their own trauma about grief, or they can’t face death, or their defense mechanisms go up and The type of giving being asked is being is awakening some of their own trauma and their own pain and possibly they can’t and even that again in the space of a healthy relationship would be delivered with sensitivity and emotional generosity would be delivered by honey. I wish I could. 

Whenever you start talking about the ambulance, it brings back my PTSD and I have these flashbacks and I start shaking and I’m not much good for you and I want to be able to take care of the kids now and is there any other way I can help besides this way as an example? Wow. Okay. So I guess someone could walk into the therapist’s office and say, I need help with my grief.

And it really becomes about, you know, I’ll help you fix your marriage. Sometimes. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. And grief and going through the journey of grief often brings out quite a bit. It causes a person to reflect on, okay, what is life? When it comes to an end, what do I have? What don’t I have? Why don’t I have it?

What do I want? What do I need? Right. Who’s giving that to me? So it can create a crossroads sometimes, which can be very difficult to navigate. And that’s why any wise therapist is going to help a person Not to make any significant decision except if their safety is impaired in the throes of grief, just like not in the throes of depression, because sometimes, you know, in that time where that’s it, he can’t be there for me, marriage over, the possibility for a rash decision instead of working through it , is heightened.

Right, right, right. So it’s so incredible, like people and the motions and the layers I just find it fascinating how there’s just like so many things to constantly peel away to really get to know a person and really to get to know ourselves. It’s not like, you know, we don’t really know ourselves these days I don’t think many people don’t.

I love that Rabbi Volba says… You know how me does and and there’s no greater chachma than the chachma of self knowledge. With other chachmas in some ways it’s finite. Like you know the information or not over here you can give a smile to somebody. Is that smile coming because you want them to like you?

Is that smile coming because you truly have a value of being friendly and enriching the lives of others? Is there a part of you that wants? To be liked and a part of you that has a value of being friendly. Do you give certain people that smile and other people not that smile? So you take one tiny example and plummet to the depths and then put in all a person’s resistance to meeting themselves and really knowing themselves.

And it’s obvious why it’s a lifetime of work, right? So let’s talk about siblings and. Grandparents . I know they’re, considered a lot of times the forgotten mourners. I guess it’s probably two very, really different, you know, questions, but can we separate them? Is that okay? I think we have to, right?

Well, I guess the question really is, is that how can siblings support each other and maybe their parents when a sibling dies. Oh, I guess I’ll stop there. We could do grandparents afterwards. Sure. So again, siblings is painted with the broad brush because it really depends on the age of the children.

If we’re talking about children, children need to be cared for. It’s children’s. It’s the job of the parents to give children the security and the stability, especially when their lives are overturned, that they are safe, that they will be taken care of, and their lives will run as normally as possible.

And selfishness at that point for a young child is completely normal and healthy, meaning a child needs to know that they’re going to have breakfast, lunch, dinner, clean clothes, and a mother who’s going to kiss them goodnight, you know, and that’s healthy. So if we’re talking about young children, It’s not their job to teach them how to be emotional caretakers because that’s really not fair.

It’s our job as adults to take care of them at the same time, giving them the space if they want to talk, if they want to talk to each other to hear each other out. a family therapy type of scenario to separate by age and stage and emotional maturity of making sure they can voice their fears often again coming from a normal self focused which is normal for young children like if it happened to them can it happen to me How do I know I’m safe?

My world just became not safe. So whatever parents can do and with parents in the throes of grief for losing a child, that’s extremely hard. There’s no words that I could say that could describe how emotionally hard that is. And at the same time, you know, often that’s what keeps parents going and literally not.

Losing their grip on sanity, because it’s shalo kiderech haolam that parents to lose a child as painful as it is to lose a parent. There’s a normalcy in the world that parents go before kids. And it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. , it’s excruciating. But losing a child, no parent burying a child, like there’s, there’s no normalcy to that in the way Hashem created the world.

So, I would say that providing that safety, providing that security, providing that atmosphere where they can ask anything, say anything, be able to share with their siblings, that would be super important. As the kids get older. And we’re talking maybe about teens or adult children. Then at that point, they have capacity to do both, to be sensitive to their own worries and fears , and obviously have that attended to, but also be in somewhat of a position of supporting younger siblings.

Being sensitive to helping more and understanding that mommy and tatty might need more rest, more alone time, more delegation of certain responsibilities and to again to work from that capacity of having their own pain validated. While being able to stretch themselves and give a little bit to understanding the pain of a parent, both.

The best way that it can be navigated is that when children of any age feel heard, accepted, understood, or whatever it is, then by definition, when that’s modeled for them and given to them, they are more able to look inside and find expansive energies to be able to give when it’s just expected of them, but unspoken and They almost feel confused or ashamed around it or you’re not allowed to speak about it because you’re going to make mommy cry, then they’re suffering their sufferings not be attended to when there’s all these unspoken expectations that they have to take care of the little ones or they have to do a parent’s job or they have to make dinner and that could really be doubly harmful because they went through a loss too.

So what would happen if there’s one child talking about a teenager, let’s say that takes that on, they take on that like over responsibility and maybe guilt that they have to, you know, do everything and be there and listen or talk or don’t talk or, you know, whatever it is. And the other sibling is like, it’s not my responsibility, I’ll help out a little more, but I’m still going out with friends. And then there could be like, fighting between them also, like, how could you be so selfish? You can’t, you know, this is a crisis, we have to, you have to help out more, you can’t leave it all to me, etc.

Like that could also be very That’s a very normal dynamic, and it happens a lot. I think, again, sometimes that’s a good place where family therapy or kids getting the ear they help in the is very important. First of all, you’re going to find that kid who copes by being the goody goody or the golden child or taking on too much responsibility and often they wind up in therapist office by having subjugated themselves in the name of being that good girl and keeping everybody smooth and being parentified and having it harm their emotional system later and needing to work that out.

And I have a bunch of clients in my own practice, and I’m sure my colleagues can speak to that too. So on the surface, you know, in our culture, there’s good girls are like the heroes. And yet there’s something sometimes unhealthy that causes them to overreach at their own expense. So we have to watch out for those kids, even though people might not realize that because it feels like such a relief.

Oh, you can always depend on Baila. Baila’s got it. I haven’t done bedtime for six months, you know, and yet Baila’s really and it’s possible that the other kid is actually being healthier because she is, on the surface, seems rebellious and selfish, but she’s actually trying to hold on to being a teen, having her own life, having a sense of normalcy, going out with friends and living, but she’s being scolded for not being like Bailar and not being the golden child.

So, again, just like, you know, Shoma Hamelech teaches us, there’s Always an Al pi darko. Grief experience is no exception to Al pi darko and making sure that each child is doing this from a healthy place, not from an unhealthy place. And different children, just like different adults, have different strengths and different weaknesses and different needs and different capacities, emotionally, physically, and practically.

And so expecting the same from everybody is harmful. I wrote a book it’s called I wish someone would have told my friend and it’s like from the perspective of a teen like what they’re going through after they lost a sibling like, like their friends for sure don’t realize all the dynamics going on in the house and all those changes that are so confusing and I love how you verbalize that you say it so articulately.

Thank you. Thank you.

I want to pause here for a second because I just want to put something out there. I am middle of writing a book for parents that lost children, and we’re hopefully seeing the end of it soon, and we’re talking about names for it. And I just want to put out to all the listeners, if anyone has any ideas for names, some things that people have sent us is one with losing the unlosable, someone else sent in the unfinished portrait, and I’m just waiting to hear you know, more people’s ideas or opinions on these names.

So if anyone has anything to say email me at [email protected] Hatzlachah with that. I’m sure it’s going to give chizzuk to a lot of people, just like I heard your first book did. Thank you. I hope so. Okay, so what about talking about, you know, losing a child, what about grandparents when they lose a grandchild?

Yeah, so Once again, we’re going to utilize everything we’ve said till now. Right. It really depends on the relationship, meaning there’s a horrible kind of grief, because I’m going to make a left turn for a second and come back to your question. Okay, no problem. I go exercise every morning and the other morning an 80 year old lady came over to me.

I was exercising and she came over to chat and not a Jewish lady. It’s an all ladies gym but, you know, ladies, all kinds of ladies. So she said to me after I’m feeling a little down, And I said, what’s wrong? She said, my body’s just not working the same as it used to, meaning she’s confronting her own aging process.

So. I said to her, you know, I have two things to say to you. Number one, I hope that in 20 plus years, when I reach your age, that I’m as active as you, I’m sound of mind, I have that friendly smile on my face that you give to each person, that you’re committed to doing the best with what you’ve got. I wonder if you realize what an inspiration you are.

That’s number one. And number two, you’re judging yourself. I heard you say that you should be happy for all your blessings, but, you know, you’re down because your body’s not the same. I said, there’s a type of grief with letting go of something that’s not coming back. And it’s scary to age. There’s only one direction in this world and whether it’s confronting that there’s wrinkles, whether it’s confronting that we feel so young on the inside and we’re looking in the mirror and who in the world is that, right?

Whether it’s confronting that you work so hard on your mobility but your balance is not the same, or your energy is not the same. That’s a loss. There’s a certain amount you can do about it, and a certain amount you can’t. And it’s super normal to grieve for that. And that was what I said to her. So if we could turn back now to the question you asked.

Grandparents, there’s such a rich joy of being a grandparent, I’m speaking from personal experience. At the same time, there’s fears associated. All of a sudden, we’re an older generation, and we’re at the next table over, ? We’re at the simchas of other Bubby’s and Zeidy’s that are either celebrating their children’s brisim, bar and bas mitzvahs, acceptance, we hope, to mesiftas, and bais yaakov’s, and seminaries, chasanas, right?

It’s the next generation. There are fears associated with that. And as grateful as we are, there’s loss associated with that as to years that aren’t coming back, even though this is what we’re living for. And so then when we lose that, we’re living and holding on for the fact that there’s these links we’re creating and that If our children are happy and healthy, that we are so grateful in every which way, right?

Physically, financially, emotionally, spiritually, in every which way, and that gives us chizuk. And when we see our kids suffering, when we lost that little grandchild, it’s excruciatingly painful, and we’re helpless. And I think it’s important for us to do much about it when the relationship is healthy, when the boundaries are healthy, when we don’t invade, but we’re there as a support system, when we’re there sharing our own memories to the degree that they want it, when we’re there in a non intrusive way, just like we would be in other areas of life, 

and they could talk to us and we can be that listening ear and we can share the pain and we can give that hug because the relationship is healthy. We could be closer, and we could find ways to support each other through that. When the relationship is insecure, when it feels invasive or boundaryless when it becomes about us, instead of about them, and it’s more about why aren’t they calling me I just lost a grandchild, when it has that narcissistic flavor.

That’s when it’s going to do so much more harm than good. So those are some of the comments I would say. It is a tremendous grief. It needs to be acknowledged. And taking care of our children the way they need while getting the support for a grandparent’s own loss, which is again, Shalo Kiderech HaOlam.

 I remember going to my aunt’s house. At that time she was in her nineties and she lost her daughter, my cousin, who was in her seventies. And I was comforting my great aunt in her nineties, her daughter. Oh my goodness. Right? Not something that What you know that one would expect.

It’s that’s really crazy because especially with someone in their 70s. Like, it’s not for me to decide what’s tragic or now, people will say oh they’re so young, but I don’t know if it’s still considered, like, like a young tragic death. Like, to lose a child in their 70s and people are not even looking at as a tragedy that’s like.

That’s tragic. Right. Right. But she lost a child. Right. Oh my goodness. I can’t even imagine. And she’s still sitting there in her 90s. Wow. Oh my goodness. That’s crazy. So how does someone know If it’s them like there’s something with them that they have to fix because they’re having relationship issues, or if it’s something with others because it seems like all around, they have issues with so many people or if they have only an issue with one person then maybe that shows that it’s really the other person like how does the person really know, I’m not all people are gonna know.

First of all, because some people, by virtue of whatever disorder they have, will constantly play the blame game. Also, some people’s difficulties manifest in their intimate relationships, because that’s where there’s more emotional connection demanded. And it doesn’t necessarily manifest where that expectation or demand for more emotional intimacy is not there.

So you can have very unhealthy people, even with personality disorders, who do fine with work and neighbors. But the disorders of the unhealthiness comes out in their intimate relationships. So, again, , there’s no one easy answer to that question. It becomes an, it depends. And it really takes a willingness for a person to look in the mirror, and be able to get help, to be able to see their patterns, their tendencies, their vulnerabilities, their defense mechanisms, and work on themselves. 

There are certain clues when a person has a pattern of very frequently playing the blame game and being a victim of everybody else’s lack. That’s a clue that there’s something going on with that person, right?

I mean you know, a famous example, and I don’t know that I would have been wise enough to learn it from Rashi, but once you learn it in psychology, then you could see what Rashi knew many years ago. What I refer to is, you know, the famous Passuk where B’nai Yisroel said, Hashem hates us. That’s why he took us out of Mitzrayim and brought us to this horrible desert.

And basically Rashi said, what were they saying? They were really saying, we hate Hashem right now. We’re mad, but they couldn’t say that. So they put the blame on the other. They were projecting their own feelings. So very often, people who play a lot of blame. Like you hate me, you don’t like me, you’re always mean to me, you don’t visit me, right?

That’s really a projection of what they feel towards the other. They’re not necessarily going to notice that though without a lot of work. Right, right, right. So hard. I guess it goes back to what we started off in the beginning, right? Like, we’re not perfect people. If we would be perfect, then We would have no work and we have, I think all of us can look in the mirror and see that we have a lot of work to do.

Right. And that’s the joy of life. Every day to get up and to, you know, try to be a better version of ourselves today than we were yesterday. I guess I’ll say my favorite elements of Yiddishkeit that in school you can get a 4.0 average and then there’s nothing past that, let’s say. You get straight A’s, you get straight A’s. 

In life, there’s no such thing because since Hashem is the ceiling and that’s utter perfection, we have the joy of knowing we can always grow and there is no joy without growth. I believe it’s Rav Hirsch who connects the words Sameach with Sameach, the connection between growth and happiness.

There is no happiness without growth, which means in an interesting way, even grief can lead us on a road to inner joy, along with the sadness, because it’s not one or the other. Because when we know, if you interview hundreds of people, in their senior years and asked them to point to the times where they grew the most.

Most people of sound mind are not going to point to the times when everything was fine and that’s when they grew. They’re going to point to times that tested them to go out of their comfort zone and to reach places they didn’t think they could reach and to look back and be actually wowed In a nice way, like I never thought I would have the capacity to endure that or maintain my faith or maintain my friendship or maintain my sanity , and Hashem gave it to me and I plowed through and I did it and Baruch Hashem, right? I’m here to tell the story. Right. No, it’s true. It’s true. 

So let’s just talk about support groups, I guess, and why they’re so helpful, if they’re helpful for everyone, like what the benefit is. Sure. So first of all, I don’t like things that are one size fits all because I don’t believe in it. So when you said everyone right away, you know, like when you take tests, whenever they say all or nothing, that’s a clue like that it’s false, right?

So, no such thing as everyone, everyone needs to find what works for them. Okay, so why support groups are helpful for many. I’ll speak from my own experience at being Zoche to facilitate one support group. My support group is for people, women who have gone through some sort of abuse or neglect or both in their childhood and how it impacts them now, how it impacts them in their marriage, in their parenting, in their confidence and overall psyche and their abilities, you know, across the board. And what I find in my support group where people have said straight out is first of all, it feels so safe. Because they feel understood by others. When people go over to people in general, How was Yom Tov?

Yeah, Baruch Hashem great. How was Yom Yom Tov? Baruch Hashem great. In my living room, though, it wasn’t Baruch Hashem great. If they decided to go back to where they’re triggered every single time their father starts yelling and screaming again and I don’t mean to paint the father as the bad one. It certainly is not always the case.

I’m just using it by way of example, right? Right. Whatever that means to them. So there’s a tremendous safety. Often part of pain is feeling alone in pain. And when one is in a support group, even though everybody’s experience is different, and there’s no such thing, even if it looks the same as being the same because we’re all different.

The shared understanding that yes. You didn’t get the nurturing you needed as a child. I’ll give you two recent examples that came up. So one person was telling us that she was hemorrhaging recently and in a state of danger and she has a good marriage. So She could turn to her husband to a degree, but her husband was just as scared as she was.

So they were both in this challenge, and her husband was going back and forth from the hospital by trying to keep their kids taken care of, not panicking and keeping their life going. So what did she really need? She needed a mommy to take care of her. But if she called her mommy, It would be all about her mommy.

Why didn’t you call me? Why didn’t you tell me? Don’t you know I was worried about you? You know, I stubbed my toe and you didn’t call me. Literally, I don’t exaggerate. Okay. And the people can hear this and say, yeah, I got it. I also recently had a time when I wanted a mother and I told my mother I was going to the doctor because I had heart pain and the mother said I know what you mean I just dropped a can of applesauce on my toe.

You couldn’t make this stuff up if you tried. So In this group, there’s laughter, there’s tears, there’s understanding, and there’s a beautiful balance which I work really hard to facilitate. It’s a balance of, we want to grow beyond and not be victims of what we didn’t receive in our childhood, and help us recognize what’s normal, and help us recognize when we’re repeating patterns that we don’t want to repeat, and what would be a healthy response now.

Versus, I need to share this because it hurt me so badly, and this is a place I could put it. And to give you one more, even small example of part of the safety of support groups, just recently we opened up our group to a couple more people. And that was hard because my is cohesive and it’s been going for two years now.

So, it took a few sessions to decide they feel so comfortable with each other. And yet they want to offer the benefits to others. We had one person move out of town and another person who graduated and was really feeling good now about where she was. So we had the openings, but you never know how a newcomer is going to affect the nature of the group, right?

And so they decided, you know, through time that they want to give people what the gift they received and they work towards it. And two people came. So it happens to be, and I think this is typical, that the two newbies came a drop earlier than all the other people came in when the group starts, because they’re being the good ones, right, they’re coming on the dot on time, whereas the other one comes fashionably five minutes late, let’s say.

Right. And when one of my older members, not older chronologically, older as in she’s there before, came in. She shared, she said, you know, the whole time I was coming, I knew I was running late tonight because I had to stop somewhere at a Simcha and I kept being scared that somebody wouldn’t know where my seat is.

And that seat on the couch represents my safety and my safe place in a way I never felt. And my heart was beating so loudly that somebody else is going to be in my seat and I’m not going to have my chair. And I can’t tell you what it meant to me when I came here. And my seat on the couch was waiting for me.

Wow. From the small things to the big of having that support, understanding, the place to share, the place to vent, the place to live. The place not to be judged and the place to heal and to help each other move forward , is something that it’s a privilege. I, it’s something I volunteered to do and it’s like, it is one of the highlights of my month.

Really? What, it’s only once a month? It’s a once a month group, yeah. Oh no, they for sure need it more often, no? You know what? I work six days a week from ten to ten, my friend. No, but that’s, that is the structure of the group. And I think it keeps it going for everybody that way. Right. When you make your commitment, you’re asking therapists to volunteer.

Right. Right. It’s a commitment that, you know, there are many therapists that, that do it, but it’s a commitment. I know one person who’s had this group going for eight years. Wow. Yeah.. And you’re talking about that, for most of us, at least two hours. Oh, wow. It’s a long time. So everybody gets a chance to offer support and receive support and to bring up something on their minds and really get a response from the group and the group health.

It takes time. So if it’s a grief support group, maybe like what you’re talking is a little different. I’m not sure if it really is or not, but if it is grief, do people hesitate to come because they feel like something’s wrong with them? Like why can’t they get it all together? What’s wrong with them? Why are they falling apart?

You know, all that judgment we spoke about earlier. So, I’m going to tell you what the facilitator of this organization told me at yad V’yad. She said when they first asked Rabbanim if this is something that could be done and they got the green light, they were told yes, but they were, they were told in Lakewood, nobody’s going to come, everybody’s going to be scared of the stigma.

To my knowledge, there are more than 20 groups right now. So, people come, and there are groups for all kinds of support. If anything, I think grief has the least stigma. I would love to think that in general, stigma has gone down. You know, relief fields, thousands of calls regularly, of people looking for, frum therapists.

Like, that’s definitely in itself a different world. But certainly for grief, I’m not saying anybody should judge any state at all. Our idea was that we’re not judgmental, but I think when it comes to death, really people don’t think that anybody, you know, caused it. I mean, God willing, we’re not talking about murder here.

So, you know. It has the least stigma attached as a support group, as opposed to more. I think there’s a normalcy to a loss having an impact and wanting a safe place to talk about it. So let me ask you, I know we have to start wrapping up, but I’m curious. I was talking to, I don’t want to say her name without permission, so I’m not going to say her name, but a therapist that really works very much with mothers that have stillborns, or babies that are incompatible with life and they live a few hours or a few days.

Yes. She was telling me again about support groups. She goes, a support group, you come and over there, a support group is like, even though your baby may have died 10 years ago and you have another four healthy children, the people that made you suffer, that meal train that lasted for two weeks, like they’re not going to realize that you could still be in so much pain about that baby where the support group really does so that’s like one of the most important things. Is that kind of support group for that kind of grief even more important than other types because it’s almost the most like not validated and not recognize that how big the grief could be?

 I don’t want to vote on what’s most important because I believe that Every whatever a person’s emotional need is, is important and everybody’s grief journey is unique and when a person feels they need support for however long they need support because grief is not just in the past, it’s how it affects us in the present.

The fact that I’m in my 50s now but I don’t have parents affects me today. It affects me today in that, do I have somebody that I hope is proud of me when I do something? We never outgrow that need until our dying day. Forget about any kind of physical support or physical help or financial help or anything that a person might hope for from their parent or wisdom or advice or encouragement, right?

So I think that when we’re talking about a support group, it’s not just the impact of the past loss, which is in itself something that could take a long duration, but it’s the, how that loss impacts us in the present tense, and what insecurities it might create for us in the future. And all of that needs support and a safe place for that.

Right, right. No, it’s true. Like in my writing in this book that I mentioned before, like constantly, like there are no comparison. Like you really can’t, it all hurts. It all hurts in a different way. And of course, every situation is so different and whatever. It all, you know, it all hurts no matter what. And also like what you’re saying like that, where a person is in their grief journey like it’s constantly changing like the person’s needs today could be different next week and totally different in five years from now.

Exactly, exactly. Okay, so I guess, I don’t know, is there anything that we should like end off with. It’s whatever you want. I wouldn’t mind you sharing my book as long as you were talking about books out there, too. Yes, please, tell us about it. What’s it called again? So, it’s called The Missing Piece, P E A C E, and it’s published by Minucha Publisher.

It is stories from both sides of the emotional reality. Anybody who’s familiar with Double Take, although we did publish it before Double Take, so we weren’t copying it, and Double Take I think is such a beautiful feature, allowing people to understand there could be valid emotional realities with whatever people experience, and I think that is a cornerstone.

Whether we’re talking about grief or any other kinds of mental health to understand that we all experience things differently. And it’s not about who’s right or who’s wrong. It’s about when you’re close to somebody and connected to somebody, you want to hear and understand and validate their emotional experience.

And if anybody is interested in getting this book, they could get it through Menuha Publishers. And I just wanted them to be aware of that. When was this book printed? It’s a new book? No, this was published, I think, in 2016, 2017, so it’s a while ago. It sounds so good. I think I want to go get it. Thank you.

Thank you, I’d love your take. Thank you. Yeah, I know, because it’s true, you said something else important before that all the emotions are accurate and people what they feel is real, but what their behavior you say their behaviors. Objectively speaking, some behaviors might be more correct than others, you know.

In other words, just because my emotional reality is valid that. I was ready to go for a walk at the time we established and you were 20 minutes late, so it’s normal for me to feel frustrated or even a little hurt or sad or feeling like you don’t think my time’s important or whatever comes up for me and my emotional reality, although I don’t know what’s going on in you.

That doesn’t mean that if I punch you in the nose as a result of it just because I had a valid emotional reality that that behavior becomes okay. So we separate. Understanding and acknowledges acknowledging our emotional responses to stimuli with the behavior and the responsibility we all have for appropriate and respectful communication and behavior, regardless of what our emotional reality might be.

So I think that’s really a beautiful way to end off, because especially when someone is in the throes of grief from experience, we want to be nasty and mean and horrible to our family or friends or whoever, you know, crosses our path at the wrong second, or I should talk about me, whoever crosses my path at the wrong second, you don’t know what you might get from me.

Love how your book really presents that. Thank you so much. And thank you again for having me. It was delightful conversation. I really enjoyed it. Same here. 

Thank you.